The "10-Year Club" is a SmSh Column in which we interview long-term Shanghai expats on their life and work in China -- expats who've done at least a dime in Shanghai with basically no end in sight. We're wondering what keeps them here, what lessons they've learned, insights they've accrued, and how stuff was way back when.

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Drummer / singer / air horn wielder Ivan Belcic is a veteran of some 9,000 Shanghai bands -- Moon Tyrant, Death to Giants, Death to Ponies, The Machinery of Other Skeletons, and a whole slew of Yuyintang Halloween Tribute Night acts -- a promoter of his own and said aforementioned world famous Halloween Tribute show, and the founder of of clothing label / design company Twin Horizon.

It would be hard to imagine the Shanghai live music scene over the last 10 years without Ivan in the crowd, arms crossed, judging people in the back, up on stage screaming at the top of his lungs, or trying to snap his own neck headbanging in the front row. Just this past Tuesday, Ivan snuck out of our city for good, moving with his wife Lil' K to gothier pastures in Prague. He was here for 8 and a half years -- close enough to 10 -- and made a huge impact on the scene, stage, eardrums.

He was also the protagonist in the most metal moment I've ever witnessed, when up on an open-air festival stage in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia he unleashed a blood curdling scream at the top of his lungs into the microphone, broke the heavens with a lightning bolt, and caused a typhoon to rain down on the concert, cancelling it immediately.

I shit you not, it was pretty metal.


Photo by Jerry Hubrit

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SmSh: So, you've picked that once-a-year two week period when Shanghai actually has nice weather to move away from it...

Ivan Belcic: I know, man, I know. My mom told me there was a blizzard last week back home. The whole world is confused.

SmSh: Let's get into it. How long have you been in Shanghai?

IB: Eight and a half years. Almost 9. I came when I was 22 and now I'm a month shy of 30.

SmSh: Let's call it 10. I won't tell them if you don't.

IB: You'll grandfather me in to The Club? Thanks, man. Okay. My background. I'm from New Jersey. I was brought up there. Been in New Jersey my whole life but went to school in Connecticut for college. And then spent the summer working and then moved here right after I graduated.

I moved here kind of on a whim. Me and my two friends, we did a study abroad in Trinidad and we had some friends that were doing theirs over in Shanghai. And they were telling us how cool and happening it was over here. This is back in 2006...

SmSh: When it was actually "happening", eh. Is it no longer "happening"?

IB: It's still happening. It still is. The "happening" persists. But, so, the three of us didn't have any post collegiate plans, so we said if none of us finds a sweet job offer in The States, let's just go to Shanghai together.

When I first moved here I was making that sweet English teacher money, man. I got an English teaching job while still in The States and I had a job as soon as I moved here. I put in my year and then transitioned out as soon as my contract was up — and I have not been back. For most of my time here I've mostly been copywriting stuff. I like drawing, I like doing music, but I guess those are more like hobbies, whereas I can write, but I don't love to write, so I'm fine with getting paid to write.

But yeah. I don't so much do the "try the Perry's burger and then write about it" sort of thing...

SmSh: Yeah, few writers can heed that call. It's no joke. Maybe before we get into music and talking about Shanghai live music, can you talk about your clothing label Twin Horizon — I'm interested in what goes into getting a clothing label off the ground in Shanghai from scratch.

IB: Okay, so, Twin Horizon was a clothing label I started years ago with my buddy Clem and then my wife Kaine. Our first line, you'll remember, we did local band t-shirts. For BCR, Friend or Foe, Rainbow Danger, Moon Tyrant, and Stego. And we had two lines of t-shirts and two lines of flannels.


Professional models

But... I will say it was a good education in running your own label. I made all my mistakes with that. We never crossed the hump of becoming profitable, although we did break even.

But just eventually it was like I just can't keep pumping money into this. So, yeah...

I would like to get back into clothing at some point but it wouldn't be Twin Horizon. We would start over and it would be a brand new thing.

SmSh: What are the challenges to trying to start a clothing label in Shanghai?

IB: I think my big mistake was just jumping right in with putting some artwork on t-shirts and thinking that was all I needed to do. We didn't have a website; we didn't have any proper branding set up. We had no idea what we were in for. And products don't sell themselves. And now I know that.

SmSh: So, marketing in Shanghai was a big challenge.

IB: Yeah, like if I was to try to do it again, especially streetwear here it's so saturated, you're essentially selling the lifestyle — the vibe — much more than the actual physical product itself. Which is why that "Total Fucking Darkness" thing is selling so well...

SmSh: I knew that would come up eventually.

IB: Of course it was going to — but yeah, people are eating it up not because of the actual design but because the aesthetic the brand itself is selling.

SmSh: I guess the metal iconography is real hip these days.

IB: Yeah, I forget who posted it but someone was posting that there was a bunch of classic metal shirts now at H&M. But hey, I'm cool with that, if metal is actually becoming trendy then maybe people will actually buy metal records. That works for me [laughs].

SmSh: How does it work with actually fabricating clothing in Shanghai? Are you dealing with factories out in some countryside somewhere?

IB: So, that was another reason I stopped doing it because the amount of mafan that happened when trying to get custom-made stuff from factories. I didn't want to just print on blanks, I wanted them to fit a certain way. And have a certain quality, and a certain tactile quality. And just the amount of mafan was way too high. Just hassles combined with us being too small of an order for anyone really to bother doing properly — that sort of shit.

The printing was fun, we did all the printing by ourselves. Screen printing. That was way back in the day. We learned how to screen-print from Gregor and Nini at Idle Beats, when they were still in that building with Neocha. And that was really fun. They really took us under their wing and let us more or less intern there, and then sometimes we would show up at The Shelter and help them sell posters. They helped us build a screen-printing press with like scrap wood, clamps, and hinges.

And we just did it at home...

SmSh: Is there any legal documentation or licensing that you have to have to produce clothing?

IB: That's another thing I learned about.

SmSh: [Laughs.]

IB: So, if you're selling clothing in The States, you have to put the washing machine instructions and what everything is made of on the tags. So, our first line of shirts had no tags or anything at all. A couple of reviews that we got mentioned that, so I was like, "Oh, I guess I should do that next time." [Laughs.]

It didn't even enter into my mind to consider that kind of thing. Especially in China. If you can bake with expired flour, who really gives a shit.

SmSh: Ooooo, topical! [Laughs.] Man, that guy must be so fucked.

IB: He's the same guy who had that trendy ice cream right?

SmSh: Correct. How many were you making? The t-shirts, I mean. Like how many pieces in the runs?

IB: And now we're at another lesson I learned: Don't make tons and tons of shit you can't sell!

SmSh: Oh, man, for sure. I've still got like 900 band CDs that never sold sitting in the back of my closet but I don't have the heart to throw them out.

IB: Yeah, we vastly overestimated our market. Just last week I was throwing out stacks of our first run that have just been sitting in my possession for years.

SmSh: That's tough.

IB: Just now before coming to meet you I threw out all my drawings from the past 8 years. I just don't have the room to take them with me.

You can't take your life with you when you go away, I guess.

But I feel like it's healthy to do that. Cut your attachment to things and then you have no choice but to create more of it.

SmSh: Let's get into playing metal in Shanghai. Was playing music in Shanghai something you planned on doing before you came? What's your musical background growing up?

IB: Well, I've been doing music since I was a kid. My mom put me in a music pre-school when I was four. I learned piano when I was 8. But I was like, "Mom, I hate piano, you gotta let me quit." She said, "Fine, but you've got to learn something else". Okay, how about the drums. I'm sure internally, she was like, "Oh, what have I done."

So, yeah. Drums. And I got a guitar at some point. I had a college band where I played drums. I loved playing the drums but I always wanted the chance to run around and move, and interact more with the audience. So, when I go here I thought it was a good time to try something new. No one really knows me so if I'm horrible I won't get made fun of that much.

That's when Moon Tyrant came in.


Never ones to let a band photo op slide, these guys, even on the road in the middle of Mongolia

SmSh: Can you introduce Moon Tyrant — what was that band all about?

IB: Moon Tyrant was J.C. on bass, Jared on drums — he went on to XXYY and is now in Hogchoker.

SmSh: That's a quite a name, Hogchoker.

IB: Hogchoker, yeah. And Murray on guitar. Yeah, so they all worked together and knew each other, and I was the last to join. I met them at Yuyintang.

SmSh: What were the challenges to making a band back in the day?

IB: I don't know if there were any. I mean, it was wide open. The biggest challenge would just be internally. Are you willing to work hard enough to be tight enough to pull off a show? In terms of external obstacles, there's nothing. At time you had a lot of really active and passionate people putting on shows like Dan [Shapiro, The Fever Machine, The Rogue Transmission], Toshi [The Beat Bandits, Dropkicks, a bunch more] so there were tons of opportunities to play if you worked hard. We came in around the same time as a bunch of them — Stegosaurus?, Friend or Foe, Rainbow Danger Club, Misuzu always had crazy projects going on — so it was really easy, just playing at Yuyintang.

SmSh: Tell the people: How does one go about getting a show at Yuyintang? How does one get a concert together at Yuyintang.

IB: Now? I dunno, I haven't had to do it in a while. [Laughs.] But back in the day we'd put something together ourselves with whatever other bands were available and call up Sophia [Super, ex-booking manager at Yuyintang, current mixologist / owner at R 'n' B] to see what dates were available.

And then hope that you don't get double booked.

SmSh: They're businessmen at the ‘Tang. They like to get a bunch of different covers coming in on the same night. Yeah, I guess getting a show together in Shanghai is really simple. And not any different than it would be anywhere else. What were the crowds like?

IB: Pretty happening! Um. People were really into it. There was a lot of passion and a lot of good energy. This is like maybe 2008 to 2010 or 2011. I remember the Rainbow Danger CD release up at Live Bar — that first big record they put out. That was so electric. Some real palpable energy. I think it was a really strong time when there was a lot of passionate and creative people around, all really putting in a lot of work.

SmSh: Is it still like that?

IB: I think it's become more fractured. There doesn't seem to be that same sense of teamwork. There are a lot of bands but it seems people are more happy to just do their own band. I don't know. The scene doesn't seem to be as glued together.

But that could just be that I'm aging out of it. That I'm out of touch. I don't know who the new young kids are, but it seems like most of them are producers now. Writing electronic music. Like the Genome kids and any of the producers associated with that.

There is more heavier music now in Shanghai than there has been which is one thing I'm happy about. Local heavy scene is strong. And I'm really glad to see that. Because in the past it's always been up and down. There was a show maybe a month ago at Inferno with five local heavy metal bands, and across the board everyone was really tight and it was high energy. I felt really happy. It's great to see the metal scene so healthy.


Photo by Jerry Hubrit

Smsh: Why do you think the metal scene is making a comeback in Shanghai?

IB: Dude, I have no idea. Maybe it's just a lot of metal kids happen to be here at once. I couldn't answer that.

SmSh: What effect does being an expat have on people trying to live, write, and play music in China?

IB: I don't know man. I think it's uh... it's more of a big deal than it needs to be. I was always on the side that if you're good, who cares. Just put the work in and be passionate. Respond to your emails, right?

I don't know... Is there different treatment? Depends. For some things, like a mall opening, they used to want to get a white guy band to play. To make it seem more international. But on the other hand, I think there is a glass ceiling for expat bands in China because as far as the rest of the world is concerned it's cool to see Chinese kids playing music representing China. But a bunch of white guys, well, you can get that anywhere.

I think it's kind of a weird limbo status, wherein you have no choice than to just have fun playing music. There's no way anyone can think that it's going to go anywhere. I think it all just has to be for fun. Expats in China — there is no story there. It's not marketable. It might as well be New York or Austin. I think the rest of the world is looking for a narrative, and they get that with a band like Carsick Cars, as apposed to some expats.

SmSh: Ever play any mall shows?

IB: We did one. Real weird. 10 in the morning. It was a mall opening.

SmSh: Dude, Moon Tyrant playing at a mall opening at 10 in the morning — did they even listen to the music before?

IB: Dude, I know. We tried to just play our most "rock" songs, but I had a hard time with it. As the singer I had nothing to hide behind. Just felt very naked. But it was money. You need money to keep the band going. I can't remember how much. A few grand. But when you're self-financing records and tours, anything helps. It was fine though. It was weird. There was parents and kids there. [Laughs.] But we did what we said we would do. And that was it.

I played a show at the Pearl Tower once.

SmSh: You did! That is fucking MAKING IT. Tell me about it. I've never done that.

IB: You remember Hassan? Shanghai's Bob Dylan?

[Ed's note: I think that guy was actually "Shanghai's Jimmi Hendrix".]

So, he had gotten some show and needed to put a band together to get the money. So, he said "Just come plays drums for me, we'll just jam it out, and they'll eat it up." We brought MC One Consciousness and some bass player, I forget. And we just jammed it out for 40 minutes or so.

Right under the tower...

SmSh: My god, right under that magnificent tower...

IB: It was a long time ago like 2010...

SmSh: I'm trying to think of the songs you should play if you're playing the Oriental Pearl TV Tower. Maybe like... "It's a Long Road to the Top if You Want to Rock 'n' Roll".

IB: Yeah, that could work.

SmSh: You brushed on this before, Shanghai seems like more of an electronic music sort of place. How do you rate the electronic music in Shanghai?

IB: It's great dude. It's really happening right now. The Shelter closed at the worst time.

SmSh: Yeah? They're looking for a new place.. maybe I should cut that out. Fuck ‘em, I'll leave it in.

IB: Well, they gotta do something. I mean, you've got Elevator and Dada, but they're both their own thing. But there are so many people here putting out such great stuff. Swimful I think is fantastic. Like I said earlier, the Genome kids; MIIIA makes cool music. Of course, Conrank, world traveling superstar...

SmSh: He IS a fuckin' star, isn't he? Did you ever want to make electronic music yourself?

IB: [Laughs.] I did download Ableton once and tried to do a few tracks but I never went further than that. Everyone is a DJ is Shanghai; we don't need one more. You can handle that.

SmSh: Oh, I will. I've been getting into the Mulan soundtrack. So, talk about putting out CD. How does that work in China?

IB: Step one: Does everyone in the band agree that you'll lose a lot of money. Step two: Play shows and save. Our first CD with Moon Tyrant was called Future Super Human. We recorded it with Wu Jun. But yeah, everyone is going to end up paying out of pocket. It took us a few weeks. I don't remember how many copies we made. 500 maybe. We put a package together — the cardboard foldy one. The release shows are fun. It's just fun to have. It's fun to say "we did that, we're a real band."

SmSh: Now we're at the Death to Giants phase of your lengthy career. Tell me about Death to Giants.

IB: Me and Nicols. I think we called it "death pop". It was silly music that we took really seriously.



Yeah, that came about because we were always planning to write lyrics for the song and we had to keep counting it out because it was always shifting beat. And then we said "let's just make it a counting song so we don't have to write any words".

But all the music came out of jams. We'd get in the practice room, set up a zoom recorder and then just listen to it after like oh that section was cool, and that was crap, and then we'd stitch them together into songs.

SmSh: ...And then Death to Giants became Death to Ponies.

IB: Yeah, we played a show and afterwards Raph [Laura Ingalls] and Clem [Clement Pony] were there. And then they came up to us to ask if we wanted to play together...

SmSh: Seems like a really "Shanghai" sort of band, combining the rawk and the electronic music side of things.

IB: I loved it. I thought it was such a cool project. I'm glad I got to be a part of it.

SmSh: So, about touring. You've played Beijing a bunch of times over the years. How does putting a tour together in China work out?

IB: Well, you take trains everywhere. Trains always leave on time and planes never do, so that's the first thing to know. Most of the time I was just along for the ride, but it's just using your web of contacts. Talking to bands who have been to certain cities before you — they can pass on the venue contacts, and then it's just organizing it and setting it all up. Doing weekend tours, it's just picking a few cities that are close by and doing them all in a few days. Or in Beijing you can do a couple venues like School Bar, Hot Cat in a weekend. Book your hotels, book your tickets, and off you go.

Beijing was really fun. I remember Temple bar especially. Very good crowd. Very good affirmation. I like some of the bands coming out of Beijing, although my finger isn't too on the pulse. Death Narcissist is really cool. Guiguisuisui is a nut job. Totally doing his own thing. Like a Torturing Nurse that's enjoyable to watch.

SmSh: I don't think Torturing Nurse will be seeing this so...

IB: I don't care. Cupoli [Noise Arcade] and Brad [thruoutin] always make great music. Yeah so. All those guys.

SmSh: Did you ever experience the Beijing vs. Shanghai animosity? Is that a real thing?

IB: We never felt that when we were there. Whenever I played there it seemed like everyone was down. Fuckin' Moon Tyrant played the final night at D22. That was great. "Here's your iconic venue, a Shanghai band is sending it off."

SmSh: They must have loved that. An expat band no less.

IB: Well, it was packed out. Of course, it was nothing to do with us — just people coming to say goodbye to the venue. Like you were asking before with the expat versus the locals thing, I think it gets played up into a bigger deal than it is.

But if you are moving to China with the aim of starting a band, move to Beijing.

SmSh: Different topic. Ever had a problem with censorship or police or anything like that?

IB: Never. I know everyone in the west, China has this narrative that it's a police state dystopia where we're all bound and gagged but it's not like that. But then maybe again, us as foreigners, we've got this privilege where we don't feel that squeeze as much. But in terms of me performing music here, there's never been a problem...

SmSh: Your last band that you were in was brutal death metal band The Machinery of Other Skeletons, which is still currently going. Looking back at the four or five bands you've been in here, can you trace an evolution to the music you made here?

IB: Not really. I think at any one point in time I could have been in any of them. It was always just about whoever else was around and working with other different people that influences what they become.

SmSh: What was your favorite band to ever do the Shanghai Halloween show?

IB: Dan's [Shapiro] band doing KISS. They were unbelievable. They had Gainsler on lead guitar and their outfits were incredible. Dan's stage banter as Paul Stanley was perfect. He was doing this impression. Fabian had the tongue and the Gene swagger. They didn't break character once during the whole show. The only thing missing was the fireworks pinwheel spinning on a guitar. That was a great example of dedication. The most rewarding one was Tool, just because of the amount of work we had to put in. That was four months of practice for once show. Everything had to be note-for-note perfect.

So now if you want to get involved with the Halloween show you have to talk to Tyler Bowa [Spill Your Guts]. But it's probably already booked by now [laughs].

SmSh: Let's talk some shit. What are the bands you like these days out of Shanghai?

IB: Right now I really think Machinery is still crushing it. Of course, Hitobashira and Alpaca are both doing really cool things. And the new Loudspeaker sound — love it. Who else. Molemen are pretty fun.

SmSh: Yeah. UKELE SKA.

IB: What a thing, right? They're awesome.

SmSh: Who are your all-time favorite bands in Shanghai?

IB: All-time. Rainbow Danger Club. Always number one. There is a Chinese band called Xiban. You guys were always great too — BCR. That would be my top three.

SmSh: More interestingly. What is the worst band ever out of Shanghai?

IB: ...

SmSh: Just say Pairs.

IB: Gotta be Pairs.

SmSh: [Laughs.] You know he's still checking in too.

IB: I just didn't get it. But a lot of people really did so there had to be something there.

SmSh: Man, I always thought they were really great.

IB: It's over my head. I'm willing to admit the fault is mine. It's just over my head. Make sure you put that in.

SmSh: Or way, way, way beneath your head. Consider that. So what are your favorite things about Shanghai. What are you going to miss?

IB: Um. Street beers. And how widely available all the different kinds of Chinese food are way into the wee hours. Like you can get Ma La Tang whenever you want. Beer and food make me happy.

But my friends, really. All my friends, I'm going to miss. That really brings me down. I'll miss my friends, and just how easy it is to get along. Socially, it feels like an open city. Whether it's people wanting to get involved with music or just even wanting to hang out. There's a tangible sense of being in the same boat.

SmSh: If you could change one thing about Shanghai what would it be?

IB: If I could change one thing... oh man... that's tough. Maybe less dust. Yeah, that's my answer.

SmSh: What's your biggest regret about your time in Shanghai?

IB: Not learning Chinese. If I had it all back I would have put it the effort to learn Chinese. I didn't do it and it's a big regret — living here for 8 and a half years and still having embarrassingly shitty Chinese.

You know Ho-Tom [The Horde] can speak Shanghainese?

SmSh: Ho-Tom can speak Shanghainese? What an asshole. That's such an asshole move. Expats learning Shanghainese — what a dick move. Making us all look like suckers.

IB: [Laughs.]

SmSh: Just shoving it right in everyone's faces.

IB: That's my only piece of advice to everyone still in Shanghai. Learn Chinese.

SmSh: Any advice for people starting to play music in Shanghai?

IB: Sure. Don't be afraid to go up and talk to people. That's how you make anything happen. If you are passionate, respectful, and professional, people would be thrilled to work with you.


Photo by Rachel Gouk

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See ya, Ivan.